Support Board
Date/Time: Sat, 23 Nov 2024 05:35:09 +0000
[User Discussion] - Could not exit position
View Count: 264
| [2024-09-06 16:31:35] |
| User98657 - Posts: 327 |
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SC Support, I put a trade on this morning around the NFP release, live. The trade triggered, I was long, and when tried to flatten and cancel, I could not flatten. In the scrambling rush of trying to get flat I didn't have time to sort through what might be the cause so I called my broker and flattened the position. After being up 200 points on the trade I ended up getting out at +8. I think, though I'm not absolutely sure, that the Global P&L may have caused the issue. I think I may have had it active. Although I never reached my DLL trigger, and I can see that by the Trade Activity Log, it appears as though this may have been one of those things that CAN happen while that tool is active due to calculations, or whatever, as your documentation states. But again I'm not sure. I am fairly certain this was the cause because in trying to figure out what happened, after being flat, I did find that I could not enter new positions and the Trade Service Log indicated trading was locked. I did manage to get it unlocked and restarted and this left me to two issues I'd like you to please consider. The first is that we should ALWAYS, NO MATTER WHAT THE CASE, BE ABLE TO FLATTEN A POSITION. I would think the requirement and benefit of this override would be fairly clear. The second is that we be able to maintain the Trade Service Log. Based on some info I found this morning I have gone into Global Settings > General > Log and set Save Message Log to File to Yes, but I'm not sure that saves the Trade Service Log. The language leads me to think it saves the Message Log. Please correct me if that's not the case. In my rush to get my system back to where I needed it for the RTH I didn't give any thought to saving the Trade Service Log and it appears, again please correct me if I'm mistaken, but it appears that's the only place I could go to see what was causing any type of order issue. The only posts I found directed users to look at the Trade Activity Log History, but that doesn't provide this type of info. Thanks for the consideration, and just to be clear - I am NOT associating any of the loss of today's unrealized gains to SC, the Global P&L Management, or your engineering team. This happens. It's trading. Anything that happens is on me. |
| [2024-09-06 17:02:38] |
| John - SC Support - Posts: 36238 |
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The "Global Profit/Loss Management" tool is setup to send a "Flatten" command when either Profit or Loss rules are met. So the real question is why that flatten did not work correctly. You are correct, the Trade Service Log is not stored in any way. So there is no way to look at the information if you have exited from Sierra Chart. But if the software is still running, then all of the information is still available by selecting "Trade >> Trade Service Log". But, even without the Trade Service Log, you can look at the Trade Activity Log and be sure to look at the Orders and look for the "Flatten" order that should have been sent by the "Global Profit/Loss Management" and see if there is any information in the "OrderActionSource" as to what might have occurred. For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, use the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing |
| [2024-09-06 18:00:17] |
| User98657 - Posts: 327 |
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Thanks John, From this one bracket order I can see 266 entries in the TAL by selecting All Activity. It is not the same nomenclature and language that you'd find on the TSL, but it's something. The first issue is that the time stamps are clearly incorrect. The first time stamp is 07:31:40.312636. This order happened at 8:30 eastern as part of the news release, not after. If I'm getting Central time zone data back from Teton because Teton is using CME stamping (Chicago and Central Time), that's understandable. But the fact that it is so far past the event time is a question. Second, the words "Flatten" or "Global Profit/Loss Management" do not appear directly. I can see indications of me hitting Flatten and Cancel, but I don't see any "Rejection" anywhere, though I know those requests were being rejected. Also: There were attached orders submitted with the OCO Bracket that were never filled, and did not appear on my chart. There was a trailing stop submitted as part of the order that does show up in places within the data, but I cannot discern what happened to them, or if they were even submitted to the Server. As I stated, I could see by the TSL that my "Flatten" request was being rejected because I was locked. That should probably never happen. If there was a flatten command sent by the PL Management, why am I not seeing it, and why was it not flattened? Can you direct me to someone at Teton who can help decipher what happened here so I can avoid it in the future? Thanks a lot for your help. Appreciated as always. |
| [2024-09-09 13:48:50] |
| Sierra_Chart Engineering - Posts: 17145 |
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The Trade Activity Log dates and times is shown in the Global Time Zone that you have set. You will find this at "Global Settings >> Time Zone Settings". So if this is different from your charts, that would be why there is a time difference. Also make sure your computer's clock is set accurately: Incorrect Date and/or Time Display, Missing Historical Intraday Data, Chart Not Updating Regarding this: The second is that we be able to maintain the Trade Service Log. Based on some info I found this morning I have gone into Global Settings > General > Log and set Save Message Log to File to Yes, but I'm not sure that saves the Trade Service Log. The language leads me to think it saves the Message Log. Please correct me if that's not the case.
The Trade Activity Log is the definitive and comprehensive complete log of Trading Activity. Not the Trade Service Log. Always use the Trade Activity Log: Trade Activity Log: Viewing Historical Trade Activity Regarding this: If there was a flatten command sent by the PL Management, why am I not seeing it, and why was it not flattened?
Go through the steps here and provide the information requested: Trade Activity Log Analysis: Support Assisted Trade Activity Log Analysis Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, use the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing Date Time Of Last Edit: 2024-09-09 13:49:31
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| [2024-09-09 15:19:46] |
| User98657 - Posts: 327 |
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The Trade Activity Log dates and times is shown in the Global Time Zone that you have set. You will find this at "Global Settings >> Time Zone Settings". So if this is different from your charts, that would be why there is a time difference.
Also make sure your computer's clock is set accurately: Incorrect Date and/or Time Display, Missing Historical Intraday Data, Chart Not Updating Yes, that's the first thing I looked at when I saw the discrepancy. My Global Time zone is set to NY/Eastern, and there's only the one default time zone. I also checked by charts to be sure they were only referencing that time zone. I understand the TAL, thank you. I will follow up with the requested information on the PL Management/Flatten command. Date Time Of Last Edit: 2024-09-09 15:20:10
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| [2024-09-09 15:28:23] |
| User98657 - Posts: 327 |
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I've uploaded the TAL file. Hopefully you will see the trade in question at the top of the file as the first trade starting at 7:30c/8:30e. Again, still not sure why it is showing up as 7:31:40 on my end. Thanks again |
Private File |
| [2024-09-11 20:43:32] |
| User98657 - Posts: 327 |
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John, I had an issue again today with an OCO order placed around a news event. My stop got jumped and rejected. I've come to understand now that this is essentially what happened to me on this original post request and so I'm simply adding onto that open issue instead of creating a new one. The original issue still has the remaining open item of why the Flatten order, which should have been sent as part of the Global P&L Management event that locked me out, either was not sent or was not recognized. I would still like someone at Teton to look at that TAL I submitted and get back to me on that. With today's issue, and last week's issue, I was able to figure out what happened. I did not realize that our stop orders are not actually stop orders and are in fact being converted to Stop Limit orders at the CME until now. I have to say, I was pretty shocked when I put those pieces together. While I understand your support post wherein you say [this is not being done by Sierra Chart], [it is being done by the CME], the question that isn't answered is why aren't we sending Stop Market instead of Stop Limit? The CME supports two types of Stop order - Stop Limit, and Stop Market (AKA "Stop with protection"). Why isn't Sierra Chart offering us the ability to select a true Stop Market order for protection? A stop limit is really not true protection. There's no need to provide the link referring me back to order types. I've spent the afternoon reading through them. It wasn't until I saw my TAL switch the order from Stop to Stop Limit that I was able to get to the bottom of it. If there's a reason SC cannot provide support for CME's Stop Market order type please just let me know what that might be. As it stands, there's really no way to use SC to trade something like a news event. But that is perhaps a secondary concern. I'm guessing there are thousands of users who don't realize their stop order is not actually a stop order. You could get flushed and rejected out of a stop limit order on any number of unforeseen market events. Thanks for your help as always. |
| [2024-09-11 21:21:19] |
| Sierra_Chart Engineering - Posts: 17145 |
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The CME will convert a Stop Market order to a Stop-Limit order. There is no way to prevent that.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, use the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing |
| [2024-09-11 22:17:59] |
| User98657 - Posts: 327 |
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Thanks. Just so I'm sure I'm understanding you correctly: Even though the CMEs documentation says they support "Stop with Protection", and that this order type acts like a "Stop Market", you're saying they do not. Am I understanding correctly? |
| [2024-09-12 16:35:05] |
| Sierra_Chart Engineering - Posts: 17145 |
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Stop with protection just means a Stop-Limit order where the exchange is setting the Limit price. You can ask the exchange this. Here is a description: https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/trading/orders/stop-with-protection.php Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, use the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing |
| [2024-09-17 15:58:00] |
| User98657 - Posts: 327 |
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Thanks. What you're linking to says the same thing I'm asking. I also reached out to the CME. They're saying the same thing and I've posted the links they sent below. There is an order type Stop with Protection that appears to use the tag "99". I would say however, it does not help that when they accept an order type of "Stop with Protection" they return "Stop Limit" to the customer. That's obviously causing some confusion. But that order type still acts as a Stop Market as long as the order/trigger price is within the order protection limits. (12 points or so on the NQ). A Stop Limit operates differently, obviously. My question is, which type of order is SC & Teton submitting to the exchange? Is it this Stop tagged as 99 that should act as a Stop Market? In my cases, it doesn't seem to have acted that way. https://cmegroupclientsite.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/EPICSANDBOX/pages/46727472/Order+Types+for+Futures+and+Options https://cmegroupclientsite.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/EPICSANDBOX/pages/46211309/iLink+3+New+Order+-+Single https://cmegroupclientsite.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/EPICSANDBOX/pages/46471809/iLink+3+Execution+Report+-+New+Order https://www.cmegroup.com/education/protection-functionality-for-market-and-stop-orders.html This is also a snippet from their CME Globex Order Entry API on Google Cloud - https://cmegroupclientsite.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/EPICSANDBOX/pages/46475704/CME+Globex+Order+Entry+APIs+on+Google+Cloud |
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